Unknown: 0:02

The cosmos is within us. We are made of starstuff. We are a way for the universe to know itself. Carl Sagan. Welcome to the lessons from nature podcast, modeling the secrets of the bees, hosted by Mark Rubin.

Mark Rubin: 0:21

If you hear my voice, you're alive. And if you're alive and you can hear me, I'm communicating with you. All human beings communicate in many ways. We use sounds that are made up of words, inflection tone, effect, body language, sense, touch, temperature, and probably other things to communicate our thoughts and feelings to other people. Today on the lessons from nature podcast, we'll be discussing secret 12 For money as money. It's called Honey talks. It's about how clear communication shares knowledge and improves the likelihood of team success. I like to introduce my co host, Olympic coach RAM Nair. RAM is a Chartered Professional coach, Master learning facilitator and holds a diploma in high performance coaching. He has been head coach for the Canadian National badminton team, the Canadian National pair of badminton team, the Mumbai rockets of the premier badminton League, and the Vancouver lawn tennis and badminton club. He is the author of two books, the sport of life, and from confusion to clarity. Ram will co host for episodes with me where we will discuss the psychological secrets of the bees, through the lens of the human business of making money, and B business of making honey. Welcome RAM is great to have you here. I'm sad that this is our last episode of recording together. I've enjoyed learning from you.

Ram Nayyar: 1:46

Thanks, Mark. Good to be here.

Mark Rubin: 1:48

Great. So let's get into it today. So today we're talking about the benefits of communication as it relates to honey bees and people and business and sports teams. And I thought today I do something a little different. And I wanted to read this chapter from honey as money the secrets of the bees called Honey tongs. And I thought this would be fun, because I want to relate this podcast episode directly to the things we're talking about here. Because it's very physical, because the bees communicate through vibrations and dances. And I know as a person who watches athletes move, that's a significant component of what you do. So I'm going to read this and we're going to get started with the questions. It's good. When bees dance together, we share a single thought. We demonstrate perspectives from lessons nature taught to keep the honey flowing, a workers must share facts. How many flowers are there? And how soon must we act? What are the flowers colors? What nectar do they give, which way to fly to get there? Is there enough to live by dancing figure eights, we convey our views. With every turn and wiggle, we share the special news. The flowers have nectar, the flowers are so bright, the flowers are all blooming, we need to take our flight. Every bee who's dancing is covering sacred ground without flying or even walking and making not a sound. Our dances save us Honey, what an amazing quirk, when we share what we know, we all do less work. And that is the chapter for money is money. And so this chapter in summary is about conveying perspectives, different kinds of perspectives where things are when are we now how do I get there? How many bees Should I send in a particular direction to maximize this? So the first topic here is about using communication to improve the coordination of tasks. And as I as I read in that chapter, bees rely on communication to delegate tasks, and also ensure roles like gathering nectar, guarding the hive, and tending to the young bees. And businesses do this by ensuring that efficient operations and task delegation happens through clear communication, and usually meeting schedules and things like that. So the question I have for you is, is how do I Olympic teams ensure that every player knows their specific role? How like a bee knows this specific job function?

Ram Nayyar: 4:33

So two things and before we even start, I would say to you that the essential rule of communication is listening. It's taking in it's observation, but it's also knowing your people that are involved in that venture. So the same things and the same cues that stress some people out may not stress other people are the same tasks for everybody or not equal they can can be fairly assigned, but they can't be equally assigned. So if we want to take a look at a team formation, one of the things that happens in all teams, that team building piece, right, what is team building? Now people in some of the workshops and courses I host, we talk about people call me in for team building and team building is nothing more than getting to know somebody. It's not about, you know, so why do various coaches say, Okay, well, let's, we're going to go build XYZ, or we're going to go to a cooking school, or we're going to go do this task, because what they're doing is they're saying, outside of the tasks that you're actually employed to do. Here are other tasks. Let's see how you do them. And let's see how you fit in with the rest of the group. When you do that, there are people that become leaders. And there are people who become followers, some people don't do anything, some people do more. Some people get innovative, some people go outside of the box, some people stay very close into the box. And if you're the coach, your job is to observe all of that, right, you're making sure that you're seeing it because what's what's happening is that the person's true nature is coming out. Now, once we know that nature, and the others on their team know that nature, just that knowledge is your first form of communication. That is that I know how somebody is going to respond to any given situation, perhaps not any given situation, but many given situations. Once I know that, communication becomes much easier, and the assignments become much easier. And here, and here's the big one, the roles and more importantly, the responsibilities become more clear. The person that's tasked with something, understands what their responsibility is. So when they know that this is my responsibility is to do XYZ, great, I know that that's what I'm going to do. And everybody else knows that's, that's what I'm going to do. So while I have a responsibility, they have an expectation. That's all unsaid communication, right? However, the task assignment in the task assignment is the understanding of the roles and responsibilities and the communication all come into play right there. So again, all of the individual players know themselves and the other players know each other. They know their strengths and weaknesses, they know that they're responsible for something. Now communication is easy. Because we're dealing with what is known, not what is not known.

Mark Rubin: 7:41

That was a really great summary of that. And really, so let's talk about the other side of this, basically, that one was about sort of maximizing things, let's say about responding quickly to threats, so be signal through pheromones, and also vibrations, and that enables a collective defense. And I'll give you an example is sometimes I go into beehive, and they're super mellow, super calm, it's nice, you don't need even protective gear, but I might drop a tool in the beehive. Oops, and the bees become agitated, and they will try to sting me because it's the vibration signals to them, that there's danger. The reason beekeepers use smoke is that the pheromones signaling is blocked by that. So they can't spread a danger signal. And so similarly, in business, effective communication allows businesses to respond quickly to risks and threats. And in business, I had meetings every week. And we would we would run through risks in the meeting as well. And having a framework for discussing risks and dangers, quickly when things happen. So you can react quickly is super important in business. So the question I have for you is in organizing these teams, how do you use communication to quickly respond to unexpected challenges, or competitor strategies or threats to your strategy and spread that information out when people are playing a sport like in real time? How does this happen?

Ram Nayyar: 9:16

So we have a saying the Canadian Olympic Committee ins prepare, prepare, prepare, and then prepare some more. And that that means that contingencies are always in place, there's always a contingency, right? There's always well, if this happens, then that happens, right? If this happens, then that happens. That's sort of in the in the terms of logistics and traveling. I mean, I'll tell you a great one thing of references before but at the 2012 Olympics, my team was hit with Norwalk highly contingent with what they get on on on ships, right? Oh, yeah. Right. So so all of a sudden, one athlete shows up and like what happened? What happened? We all collectively went to a movie together. It was wonderful. It was great. And you know, somewhere in the middle of the night I get a knock on my door and you know, so and so's not feeling well. Oh, okay, let's go get some Gatorade, we got Gatorade. But an hour later as I go to bed again, I get another knock so and so's not feeling well, wow, my team was hit with Norwalk. We woke up to the reality that the National Health Authority had been called in now understand that Norwalk is highly, highly, highly contagious. They will not let us we were not on site, we were at a pre training camp. Here's the situation. The hotel we're in. does not want us there. Right? Right. Because we can't they can't walk anywhere because they they touch something they leave norovirus, right? Okay. All right, we can't go to the village because now we infect the entire game. We can, we can collapse like we can. Basically you feel like garbage for three to four days. And so you can't compete, right? By the way, you can also retransmit so all of this is going on. So we can't go to the village. Okay, we can't get on a plane and go home because they're gonna let us on a plane. Yeah, can't get on a bus. We can't like we're like, okay, but remember, prepare, prepare, prepare, what's the contingency? The contingency is, I had a wad of cash. I had friends in that area. I called somebody University was out, we were able to find individual apartments for everybody that we were paying for obviously, yeah. But that helped to defray those costs. I wasn't affected. I ran out to the local stores, got meals, dropped them at people's doors, and then said, Go get them don't open the door when I'm there. I'm not even gonna see you. Yeah. And you know, three days later, we're all fine. And we went back and competed. And, and it was all okay, we were cleared by the doctors. So prepare for a threat. What was our preparation there? The preparation there was that that I had gone in for lots and lots of training on how to deal with these situations. Now, they're not specific, by the way, right? Nobody said, What happens if you get norovirus, right? It's more about do you have the mental mindset to withstand something? That is a wrench that gets thrown at you? What's your adaptability factor? That's number one. How do you respond? If so what was our threat or threat was we don't play? What was my response? These people need to play, my team needs to get there the athletes need to play. So if they need to play, they need to feel better if they need to feel better than everything stems from there. So remember this, any threat is that which prevents you from the goal. So when we clearly articulate what the goal is, be that in business or be that on a team, what is the goal, anything, then that takes me away from the goal is a threat. And I have to be very quickly able to deal with said threat, regardless of what that may be. So think about it that way. So if you're in a business of selling widgets, and there all of a sudden is a new widget manufacturer that's going to compete with you. You're on high alert, you have one job in your mind, and that is how do I overshadow this other widget maker. How do I position was how do I market that? Okay, do I market better? Do I make it cheaper? Do I Do I double down with my clients? What do I do? Whatever that motion is, that's going to be a common thread. But it started with one thing, what's the mission? So if you think about the bees, why are the bees attacking you? Because they're protecting? Yeah, they're protecting the queen. That's all they're doing. It's not about let's attack Mark No, not about that. It's about protecting the queen. Yeah, so to understand how to deal with threats, it's to understand the goal, then it doesn't matter what the threat is. Because if you don't understand the goal, and you're just dealing with the threats, if you're preparing only for the threats, well, if you've got a cold, you do this, and if you get this, you do that, and those are those are logistics, they're inside of a much bigger thing. So I always coach my clients to say, understand what your goal is. So again, communication, First, understand yourself. Understand your goal, understand your role, understand your responsibility, you can deal with any threat that comes your way,

Mark Rubin: 14:15

right as a great way to end that. Let's move into the idea about sharing of resources. The bees communicate with each other about the rich nectar around them. And they come back and then communicate that to the other bees and the bees go over there and gather that energy. Businesses do this too, and share resources or opportunity information for better utilization. So in a business, there's constant communication about reallocating people in different ways based on the roles and strengths are trying to create situations that are advantageous to increase the amount of dollars per hour that comes in and the bees are doing that with calories per hour. So in terms of Olympic sports, How might an Olympic team communicate about their energy levels or their like you just gave an example of illnesses and how they feel and how they can work together based on their individual strengths, to communicate strategies that improve the chances of winning.

Ram Nayyar: 15:18

As simple as this is gonna sound, so I can give you some scientific ways to do it. And scientific ways are all kinds of monitoring systems that many, many athletes, many, many teams use, they can be as simple as a Fitbit, they can be simple as a heart rate monitor, they can be force plates, vertexes, your resting heart rates, that can be heart rate variability, there are a lot of different scientific things that can happen that that measure the things that we can't feel. So that's, that's important, because feeling is one part, there's a mental component to it. One of the best coaches I've ever had a chance to learn from said, you can measure the physical, but it's really hard to measure the mental. And if you're a good coach, you're going to see it, you have to learn to spot it, you have to be able to call it but more importantly, the athlete needs to have the confidence to communicate it. So your job is to create a safe environment. It takes a really strong athlete and a really strong coach to be able to have the Congress conversation that goes, I'm not at my 100% Today, I'm at like 80%, I give you 80 I'll give you 80. But that's that's what I got. And I don't know if the ad will sustain. That's one way because that's the athlete talking to you saying, and here are the reasons. The reasons could be psychological. So creating the safe space for your employees to be able to say, I'm not I'm at, I'm not in like 100, right? I'm not, I've seen a model in relationship modeling, where people come together, and they're, you know, they want to be all happy for each other, except the person says, you know, I'm at a good 75. And the other person says, Well, I'm at 101, I give you a little bit, and then we're both at like 85, right? If I give you 15, I'm at 85. And you can pop up to 87 or 90, and then you know, whatever, we'll figure it out. And we'll both be good. Okay, great. So there's all sorts of ways to allow but the, the underpinning of all of that is an understanding that the other person is able to listen to you and you're able to talk to them, without which, so it goes back to the idea of creating a safe environment, which I think bees have, because they they have because the understanding, again, go back to the goal, the understanding is if I'm not totally honest with my communication, I'm gonna let the team down, me wanting to be a star, and not having the gym to be that star that day, is actually going to work against my team, which works against my goal. Yeah.

Mark Rubin: 17:49

And the goal of the bees is to survive. So they have instinctive desire to collaborate at this level. But what I'm hearing you say really, it's about is empathy first, and perspective. Second, and with empathy and perspective, communication is clear, because it's about achieving the common shared goals.

Ram Nayyar: 18:10

And it goes back to your first one, right. So I have a goal. I know my roles and responsibilities, I know how to communicate, and that communication allows me to both identify threats and share weaknesses.

Mark Rubin: 18:22

That's right. Perfect. Okay, so this one's about decision making about how bees reach consensus. Did you know that bees vote? Do you did you notice they actually vote? Did not? Yeah. So they have a consensus based decision making process? Should they relocate the hive. And they vote in different ways. They vote with dances, and they also vote with pheromones. Another Another thing they vote on is should they replace the Queen based on her performance based on their assessment of the resources in the habitat and how well she's she's matching supply and demand in the hive. And when she gets out of balance. The pheromones tell the worker bees to replace her. They're voting, it's consensus based organization. And businesses have some voting either directly or indirectly because people talk and he talks people talk. Okay, so So when when the vibe is good in a business, the culture is good. And people are spreading the positivity around the business, when it's bad for something for whatever reason that they spread the negativity around. And the bees are doing that in a similar way when it's like should they relocate or not? How do you manage consensus on strategies or changes like during the heat of competition, like we're what one person may say, We should do this? You know, it's hard, you know, especially at that level, so, what would you say is your magic here?

Ram Nayyar: 19:53

No surprises. That's that's, that's the that's the big thing is no surprises. People will react and doesn't matter if it's sport or business where you surprise them, this prize, in and of itself will send them into a tizzy. So when I've communicated, here's how I'm thinking, in our situation, we have World Team Championships and various team championships. And the question is who's going to play? And so I've been in situations where a player has said to me, Well, you know, so and so's not doing so well all play, and that other prices as well, so and so's not doing well on all play. Okay, right. Okay, so I'm clearly not going to get consensus, right, I'm clearly not going to get consensus, what's gonna happen is, no matter what I say, somebody is not going to be happy with that decision. If they're not happy with that decision, there's an unspoken communication, that's, that's not going to work in my favor, it's actually going to work against me. And when it works against me, that's going to pollute the rest of the team, right? It's gonna create doubt, and it's going to create, okay, so I already know this, right? How do I take care of it, but I don't take care of it by not being open, I take care of it by being ultra open, saying, you know, I think that other team is going to play so and so. And in my mind, didn't you have a really awesome match against them six months ago, didn't you almost knock them out that logic can't be defied. Because it's no longer about the battle between my two players or three players, it's a battle against who's the best suited to play this player, the only way to hit consensus is to understand that one fact is that it's our team against their team, it can be that two individuals think they're the best suited. I then default, the statistics, and then you just go with, okay, this is my gut feeling right? Now, ultimately, if you can't have logic work for you, if you can't have the awareness of who are you playing? Why are you playing that person, then you're going to have to just as a leader, you're going to have to suck it up and say, Well, this is why we're gonna do this, because I said so. And, and, and then in that case, you're gonna have to do some damage control with the person that you have sidelined. Yeah. Which also requires fair and honest communication.

Mark Rubin: 22:20

Most of the business like is what I do is talking, when people are in an office, what work are they doing? Like, what is the work, they're either talking with their fingers, through emails, or they're talking with their voice through the air, but they're not making the widgets in the office? You know, they're, they're talking so work, you know, is just communicate, it's like 99% of business is just talking, talking to customers, talking to employees, talking to different people, vendors, partners. And I think there's not enough emphasis given on these kinds of topics, because, you know, this is the secret sauce is sharing information with each other in ways that are collaborative and not destructive.

Ram Nayyar: 23:06

You know, again, we've talked about this before, is how you do anything is how you do everything. And I think if people understood that concept, a little more things could go a long way to being happier. Yeah, the way that I governed myself is the way that I govern my family, is the way that I govern my business is the way that I govern my life. When you have that level of consistency, you will repetitiously do the things that make you successful.

Mark Rubin: 23:33

I agree. Let's talk about adapting to change. So bees are super adaptable, they are adaptable in terms of their basically everything. But honey bees adjust their foraging strategies based on shifts and resources that are communicated among them. And this communication happens in real time. Every time I've been lands, every bee that comes back from being in the field, like that's what it is. They're communicating information about what they learned on their journey outside the hive. And this improves, you know, the rate of energy collection and optimizes it. And in a business. At the end of the day, with the trucks that I have that leaves my office, when they come back, they have an end of day checklist. Every time they come back from a field they are communicating something so that we can try to improve as Batman is always indoors or ever outdoors.

Ram Nayyar: 24:30

Always well there is there is a beach badminton, but there it's mostly indoor.

Mark Rubin: 24:34

Okay, so I imagine the electricity could fail or I imagine you could get a virus

Ram Nayyar: 24:39

roofs falling, okay, we've had hurricanes we've had, you know, power outages and so on.

Mark Rubin: 24:45

Okay, so in those situations, there is a degree of communication. Now, in your case, if like there's a power outage and it's an indoor event, then they would probably postpone the event. But even in that change at that level of an Olympic athlete I would be disruptive, or someone prepared for years and years and years from this event, and they're at the top of their game, literally. And the power goes out, and now it's dark. And now it has to be delayed till tomorrow and they were winning.

Ram Nayyar: 25:13

I've learned that every player and every athlete and every human is different. I've learned that there are some baseline things that we do that can help us prepare. There's a warm up routine. And the warm up routine can include both physical and mental. So we're going to do this and every player will do it differently. That's for them. That's their discovery, right? It's their discovery. So we know that, okay, it's, you know, our to showtime, and we're going to start prepping. Okay, so whatever they're doing there, what it's the hitting, it's the stretching, it's the warming up. It's the mental focus, it's all of those things that work. And then they go to the show, right? Then they get on the stage, and then they're going to play and then the lights go up, or the lines up for 10 minutes. Are they out for an hour? I don't know, for the day, you have to have a either keep warm, keep warm means also keep focused, or a refocus strategy. And by the way, the other thing that we can suffer from is delays. Yeah. Okay. It can be that the other match went on, because we're not a time sport. What we do is we re emphasize over and over again, the strategy of whatever it is that you need to do to perform to get out there. And again, will you re Energize? Will you stay energized? They tell you, it's going to be 10 minutes, except it's two hours. So for every thing, every issue like that, that's what's going to have to happen. How's that translated into the world business? It is translated by having that meeting where you get to close the deal, but the other deal didn't close because there was a hiccup. We're going to do it again, tomorrow. Great. Now, we found another hiccup. And it goes on and on and on and on. And those things can absolutely destroy our intent, if we don't have strategies that, that either allow us to delay and say, Okay, I can stay focused for another 10 minutes before I go, Okay, now I'm playing. And we have strategies for that, that I share with athletes and clients and say, Okay, so here's the best way to do this is to go back, you understand that you still have to perform, you just your timeline got delayed? How do you keep it without getting too nervous? Or too lacks, because one of those two things is a threat?

Mark Rubin: 27:31

You know, one of the things I'm learning from you, as you already do, but learning more now is the degree that you have strategies and plans for every contingency. And you're always thinking ahead of where the ball is going to be later. And the ball is a situation. What's the next situation? What's the angle of attack? What's the velocity of that situation? How can I put my body in the position that I'll be ready for what's coming, you're not only just doing this with the shuttle, you do it with ideas and people and situations. And that is the key to your success as an Olympic coach is you are playing the game at such a strategic level at all times. It's amazing. Thanks. Let's talk about one that's really important. And you mentioned this earlier, which is really about establishing trust. We started with the idea of empathy and perception, but but having a trusting communication is what enables those things to happen. Because if it's not a trusting communication, empathy is hard. And perspective is hard. Because you don't know like, what is the angle of this other person in the world, consistent and accurate signals among these reinforced trust. And that's a cornerstone for hive cohesion. And as I mentioned, the bees have dances that they communicate, and they're all actually believe it or not slightly different across hives, and they have accents. They have regional accents. Like we have regional accents, for the same reasons. It's because they're learning them. They're learning them from other bees. And like we have the ability to communicate, but we have to learn language, you know. So familiarity, and repetition of familiarity increases trust because you know what to expect. So in business, transparent communication, fosters trust in terms of being on a team and Olympic team. How do you create systems to improve trust across all levels of this organization, to ensure that your team members trust each other at every level

Ram Nayyar: 29:30

of consistency, right? So the interesting part about consistency is this. It's important when we talk to teams, that that that the routines that happen are enforced, right? Not for the sake of a routine, but for the sake of a stable environment, because what you're doing is you're creating a stable environment. So if you decide that you're going to have a 9am meeting on Zoom, or a nine am meeting in person or a 9am meeting over the phone. And you decided that that's when it's going to be, make sure to do it. Because when you when that nine o'clock becomes 10 o'clock, when it doesn't happen one day, but it happens that the other day, the meaning of the meeting has disappeared. Now, that's really, really, really key is that this is the methodology and how, again, how you choose to do that is up to you, that's your own creativity in the way and manner in which you present that though, that consistency needs to exist. Right. So if your question is on, how do we build that trust, when every team member knows that the other team member is going to routinely do something, there's no surprises? Yeah, trust,

Mark Rubin: 30:54

and though enough to know that it's about a repetition, and consistency. And that's not just a physical idea. It has to do with rhythms and practices. And those things, a meeting is a good example of that. And having a meeting at a regular time, every time where people have to be show up before it starts and be ready to go is something that is an intentional thing, even just having a meeting to have a meeting where everybody shows up and talks about like their best thing that happened in the last week. That increases trust, as long as everybody shows up on time ready to go. And I you know, I just think that there's so many parallels here at the level that you're at and business that, you know, it's really enlightening to talk to you about this through business and through the BS. Yeah. All right, let's do one more here. communication and conflict resolution. So bees use signals to manage aggression, and communicate aggression. And that ensures harmony in the hive. And another story that I hadn't told yet is a couple weeks ago was honey harvest time here. I had one hive that had honey, after I extracted the honey, I was taking off this box, the top box, the energy bank, and I was moving it and I dropped the box, the box was heavier than I thought I didn't have a good grip, I was only wearing the top part of the B suit and jeans, not the full the suit which I should have been doing. Okay, it was like my whole. And as everything was fine, they were fine. But I dropped the box. And it landed on my legs. And I kind of caught it. And they were kind of pressed up again. And of course they stung me through my jeans. Now that was a mistake I made, okay, by moving in what they would be considered to be aggressive to them, which it was it was an unintentional, but I did move in an aggressive way to the bees. And they stuck me and that was a conflict that happened. And I could hear the buzzing level increased dramatically when this occurred, okay, because they're communicating, not just with pheromones with their buzz, is they're beating their wings to send the signal to the other bees and they came out of the hive, they came out. And they were like trying to, you know, they're like this guy is coming to get us, okay, which I was from their context. And they stopped me and I ran away. I imagine that when people are under stress, having prepared for like decades of their lives, having achieved the highest levels of athletic capabilities, that there's a lot of pressure in this situation. And what I observed in bees and people is when they're under pressure, and under stress is way more likely for conflicts to occur. How do you handle disagreements? Among people that are operating at this level in using communication skills? Do you coach them on how to resolve their conflicts? Or do you what was your magic here?

Ram Nayyar: 33:58

Well, let's understand something somebody in a conflict that that situation at that level at that moment, resolution isn't really a thing. Because for them, that's their life, right? They're passing right there right now. This is it, everything, everything I've worked for, because if I got this one shot after 10 years of training, or 12 years or 15 years, or whatever that was, this is my moment. And my moment is somehow in danger and, and depending on how much they how much they're tied to that, that will become a real big thing. I mentored a couple of coaches on this. And they said, how do you handle the pressure? The coach is asking me as a coach, how do I handle that pressure if that happens, layers to this? And I said well, you firstly you understand the pressure is a privilege. It's like the pressure that carbon feels before it becomes a diamond. It's a privilege, the more pressure that carbon fields, the better a diamond it is simple You're talking about pressure as if it was a horrible thing. It's not, it's your moment to understand that it's a privilege. And it's your moment to grow. And it's your moment to see, well, if I can stick handle this, I pretty much handle all the pressure, right? Like I can, okay, I can take it away. If you're the person in the situation, if you're the athlete, you're the coach, you've got these athletes, and they're going at it, you also have to understand their situation. Their situation is this is their life in the wings right here. So you telling them to calm down, will have the exact opposite effect, right? My, my strategy has been okay, embrace it, tell me what's going to happen. Tell me, talk to me, let me know. And they tell you and they'll spew all kinds of stuff might be at you, it might be at somebody else it might be at themselves, it might be whatever, you're gonna get to hear it, they got you feeling better. Because generally, pressure just needs like a pressure cooker just needs that valve to relieve some of that pressure. before it goes back to making the thing that was supposed to make if I'm an athlete, and I understand that that pressure that I'm feeling right now, is actually going to be an impediment to my performance. And by simply relieving it by simply talking about it and relieving that pressure, right? That it'll it'll come down to will make my performance better, it will go away. And if I have two people in conflict, and I can help them understand that, yeah, you're steamed right now. But go ahead, let it out, let it out, let it out, calm down, because we have a job to do. It'll go away. Right. And if that doesn't work, then you send them to their separate corners. And then you have other strategies, you can have the strategy of, okay, go into that corner, yell as loud as you want, like, go for it, just get it out, whatever. But there's no getting around getting rid of it. Right. But saying, okay, just stay calm till the match is done. That's, that's a bad strategy. I agree. That's a horrible strategy. Let's get let's deal with this right now. Let's deal with it. Again, avoiding avoiding the feeling will not make the feeling go away. You're gonna have to go through it. You know, there's that great saying, if you're going through hell keep going. Yeah, right. That's the point. Let's get you through this. And then you're ready to perform again.

Mark Rubin: 37:21

So in summary of all the answers you've given on this, this episode about honey talks, and communication, is really empathy, perspective, strategy and plan. That's it. And I think this level of mindfulness about communicating is not often taught, at least in my experience with people, people I interact with, including myself. And it takes time, I think to under observation, and learning what works and what doesn't work, took me a long time in business, to get to the point where I could listen in this way, and be empathetic in this way.

Ram Nayyar: 38:00

I always say one thing is, look, whenever you go out of venture, whatever that venture is, it's either gonna work out or not work out. That's it, you know, athletes get wound up about a big match, I go, Hey, listen, one of two things will happen out there. But either way, one thing will happen always, and you're gonna get a result. That's all it is. It's just a result, the result is not the pinnacle of your life. And the other thing is to understand that these competitions and things are only part of your life, they are not your life, you are not always an athlete, you're also a brother, or sister, or husband or a wife, or whatever you are all of these different things that you can be, don't blow that one up. Because when you do, you might create so much pressure that the top bursts, which is not going to help you.

Mark Rubin: 38:48

Right? Well said, Ram. Thank you for this one. Do you want to add anything else about communication?

Ram Nayyar: 38:56

Communication takes a lot of practice. So I encourage you to practice, you don't have to be defined by your communication. And as long as you understand one thing, that you might have to say the same thing. 25 different ways before you actually communicate what you're actually feeling. Because words are a poor vehicle to communication.

Mark Rubin: 39:21

Now, that's something I can resonate with. Thank you, our collaborative species communicate to maximize their chances of survival. The bees do this with vibrations, dances and pheromones, and people communicate this way to the fact that you're alive and listening to this podcast means that you're able to receive communication. That's great. It's a big advantage to share knowledge with other people. If you enjoy this discussion about communication, please subscribe to this podcast lessons from nature modeling the secrets of the bees. The next episode, I'll be talking about economics and the importance of planning Planning saves honey and honey buys time and time is the only resource that we can create. The bees are economical in their decisions and they have a lot of lessons to teach us. Visit project honey light dot life for more information about living in harmony with the rest of nature. Thank you ram for your insights. We'll see you on the next episode. Thanks Mark.